SOE Examples L3 Flashcards

(92 cards)

1
Q

Revising Licence Fee Payments HyNet

What was your advice here?

A

Current rate was below comparable schemes which was resulting in a low sign up rate, causing issues with delivery for surveys.

Advice reflected using comparable evidence from other NSIPs to increase the payment from £250 to £500 per landowner. This would go on to achieve a higher sign up rate.

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2
Q

Revising Licence Fee Payments HyNet

What were you clients objectives?

A
  • To achieve a high sign up rate for licences
  • To improve survey access efficiency
  • To remain in budget
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3
Q

NI ACCESS REVIEW

How did you budget for the increase?

A
  • I reviewed the funds in the client account and consulted the client on what budget was available for NI surveys.

I presented information on the number of landowners we would need for surveys to sign up by reviewing all existing/potential licences over an 18 month period. Achieving 100% sign up would still come in under the £100,000 budget.

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4
Q

Revising Licence Fee Payments HyNet

Why would you want to add this higher cost to your client?

A

Benefits of project progression and landowner satisfaction outweighed the cost as there would be a reduced need for notice powers.

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5
Q

Revising Licence Fee Payments HyNet

What is a comparable?

A

Properties that are similar to the one being evaluated in terms of location, size, condition, and features. These properties are used to determine the fair market value of a subject property, either for sale, purchase, or appraisal purposes.

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6
Q

NI ACCESS REVIEWS

What were the detailed reporting systems you used and how do you use them?

A
  1. NI Master Tracker - I reported on % confirmed access, %completed, % with a licence, where a notice would be required, as well as access instruction notes, making this available for all contractors.
  2. GI Master Tracker - Tracked crops and which would be ready displaying in an easy to read function for the client, which parcels required notices, claim tracking.
  3. Weekly minutes report - Tracking project updates, actions for survey team, survey scheduling, health and safety matters, GIS queries.
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7
Q

NI ACCESS REVIEWS

What advice have you provided to improve the systems?

A
  • Advised that it would be useful to add licence expiry dates to track these against progress, as there had been issues with access taken where licences were invalid
  • Advised on including a hazards tracker within all spreadsheets linked to each parcel which combined landowner comments with POWRAs to ensure safety provision.
  • Advised on including temporary influenza zone column updated daily when there was restriction zones in spring 2024.
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8
Q

NI ACCESS REVIEWS

How do these reporting systems help mitigate risk for your client?

A

By providing up to date information specific to a land parcel and landowner, and presenting this on a consistent weekly basis, I was able to keep the client and their contractors well informed of hazards, and access instructions, reducing the risk of an error occurring.

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9
Q

AGREEING LEVEL OF FEES WITH CLIENT

What was in the client brief?

A
  1. Date
  2. Name of surveyors working on the project
  3. Client Name
  4. Statement of instruction
  5. Aims
  6. Pricing
  7. Deadlines

TOE would add CHP + PII + Due Diligence on client

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10
Q

AGREEING LEVEL OF FEES WITH CLIENT

What was the range of water projects involved you advised on the fees for?

A
  • Schemes across north west
  • Schemes ranged from land referencing only, through to full scale storage tanks, and lineal pipes
  • Based on location and complexity of CSO, and key landowner, different requirements were needed which was reflected in the pricing.
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11
Q

AGREEING LEVEL OF FEES WITH CLIENT

What were the rates?

A

I didn’t negotiate the hourly rates myself, but supported the framework agreement which was reviewed for each project

Rates were up to:
- £160/hr Partner
- £140/hr 5 years more qualified
- £125/hr less than 5 years qualified
- £80 - Assistant or trainee

Rates were based on hours of surveyors time.

e.g. Boundary Park = GIS 10 hrs, Partner 15 hrs, Graduate x2 75 hrs, Surveyor = 25 hrs.

Also considered a compensation estimates based on the site.

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12
Q

AGREEING LEVEL OF FEES WITH CLIENT

What were client objectives?

A
  • To reduce CSO spill events
  • To land reference areas around the location which may be required
  • To provide meetings and engagement with key landowners
  • To advise on relevant notices to be served and when
  • To negotiate access for the works
  • To negotiate compensation and land rights if applicable
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13
Q

FUTURE CROP LOSS RIVER MERSEY

Why did you negotiate without allowance for future crop loss?

A
  • No confirmation that DCO would be confirmed, so from my client’s perspective, there may be a need to go back on the land, as well as other uncertainties
  • Instead of paying 100 - 50 - 25%, I advised to pay 100% now as a full and final claim, noting that should there be reasonable and justifiable evidence in the future for a reduced yield within the working area, a future claim would be considered.
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14
Q

FUTURE CROP LOSS RIVER MERSEY

How did this benefit your client?

A
  • Provided certainty of the full and final claim, not paying for something which hasn’t been seen yet.
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15
Q

NORTH LANCASHIRE OPTIONEERING

Why was it not possible to secure the site via negotiation?

A
  • One of the key options has a complex ownership structure (Prison, horse grazier, developer, finance company) - all unwilling to negotiate as believe it is someone elses issue.
  • Other feasible sites have flood zone risks, but also development plans and are more valuable
  • Flood risk would mean above ground solution which would not be preferred by landowners.

Therefore CPO considered.

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16
Q

NORTH LANCASHIRE OPTIONEERING

What are the timescales involved with a CPO and how did this factor into your advice?

A
  • Typically 12-18 months in total for a CPO process
  • Valuations required (c 1 month)
  • Legal fees and time (3-5 months)
  • Consulting periods (6 weeks for legal challenge once published)
  • BOR (3 months)
  • Compensation (2-3 months)
  • Objection period
  • CPO inquiry if needed
  • CPO determination takes months as well.
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17
Q

ACCESS FOR SURVEYS UNDER DCO IN ST HELENS

What was the agreement you proposed and why was the s172 notice served?

A

Licence was proposed for £500 for 12 months access

Notice was served as could not get the same survey info elsewhere
- Key crossing point for the project
- Site storage area
- Timescale constraints for the surveys (ecology, weather, crop in ground)

Serving notice entitles the landowner to losses incurred

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18
Q

ACCESS FOR SURVEYS UNDER DCO IN ST HELENS

What surveys were required?

A

Archaeology (Geophysics), ALC/peat surveys, badger surveys.

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19
Q

ACCESS FOR SURVEYS UNDER DCO IN ST HELENS

What if access was still refused following the s172 notice?

A
  • Understand why the landowner is refusing and explain powers with telephone or in person conversation.
  • If still refused, potentially seek police warrant
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20
Q

ACCESS FOR SURVEYS UNDER DCO IN ST HELENS

How would you seek a warrant?

A
  • Apply to the magistrates court with evidence of unreasonable refusal and the reasonable need to conduct the survey
  • Warrant may be issued (or not) with reasonable force to gain entry
  • General notice period is 14 days to landowner but this could be less in special circumstances.
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21
Q

GEOPHYSICS PENKETH

What were the health and safety standards of the client?

A

My client encourages all to challenge unsafe conditions and have the authority to stop work they think is unsafe. I am able to report health and safety issues, which will then be addressed.

In this case, the standards were issuing RAMS prior by the contractor. I also constructed a risk assessment prior to going to site.

I carried out a dynamic risk assessment when on site.

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22
Q

GEOPHYSICS PENKETH

What due diligence did you do?

A

Raised that weather conditions were poor and to await further instruction.

Inspected the land myself with the appropriate PPE to see if the land was surveyable

I noted knee height water in the arable field, potential unseen hazards, the risk of land damage as a result of the survey.

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23
Q

GEOPHYSICS PENKETH

What mitigation did you advise on?

A

Alongside archaeologist, I reviewed land parcels which could be used as alternatives across the wider project - and went out to inspect them from the roadside.

I was able to advise on the quickest and most cost effective land parcels to access in the wet conditions (i.e. non-arable, well drained, easy access) but also on landowner relationships.

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24
Q

VALET AREA BOUNDARY PARK

How did you measure the site?

A

Using a measuring wheel, I measured the fixed area.

I then assessed suitable locations within the site, following consultation with the landowner. I measured multiple areas before deciding the most reasonable for the works and the landowner would be the area to the north of the site.

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25
VALET AREA BOUNDARY PARK Why did you choose the area at the north of the site for the temporary facility?
- Least car parking spaces taken up - Not near entrance and exit routes - Less traffic around this part of the property
26
VALET AREA BOUNDARY PARK How did you determine the reliability of your results?
Calibrated equipment beforehand and tested after to ensure the same results. Repeated measurements - could have used disto if I wanted more accurate results but wasn't needed in this case.
27
VALET AREA BOUNDARY PARK Please can you explain your advice?
Loss of the fixed area would mean that car sales could potentially not complete (no clean cars), or they would have to transport away to an external location (high cost). Through my research and consultation with the landowner, I determined that a temporary (blow up) facility would be available to rent for the period of the works for £3000, matching the requirements of the landowner and the client. I advised my client that this was the cheapest method, with clear knowledge of prices from quotes, as opposed to an unknown claim after the fact for external provider.
28
BNG UNITS PURCHASE NORTH LONDON Why was there a need to offset?
No room to carry out any enhancement on-site, and works couldn't be avoided.
29
BNG UNITS PURCHASE NORTH LONDON What were the implications of your advice to go outside the NCA?
1.33x multiplier applied to units so required 0.89 - this meant spending £50k as opposed to £30k
30
BNG UNITS PURCHASE NORTH LONDON What is a National Character area?
A National Character Area is a natural subdivision of England based on a combination of landscape, biodiversity, geodiversity and economic activity. There are 159 National Character Areas and they follow natural, rather than administrative, boundaries.
31
BNG UNITS PURCHASE NORTH LONDON Why were statutory units not purchased?
This is a last resort and I needed to save the client money where possible. As offsite within the NCA was not possible due to time constraints, I pushed for offside within another NCA. A4 in statutory units would have been around £167,500 for the 0.69 (x2) units.
32
WORSLEY LAND RIGHTS ISSUE What had client been doing prior?
Paying increasingly more expensive 3rd party access fee for each day of access (£500/day) - now risen to £750/day.
33
WORSLEY LAND RIGHTS ISSUE What options did you present to the client?
- BAU - Agree licences short term (more formal) but not legally binding - Long term seek easement - Long term agree a standard licence everytime
34
WORSLEY LAND RIGHTS ISSUE Why did you advise on an easement?
Permanent, defined rights over the land and in the title, it is legally binding. Amount could be paid back in as little as 3 years. Reduces risk in emergency situations
35
WORSLEY LAND RIGHTS ISSUE What HOTs would be included?
1. Parties 2. Rights - access in this case 3. Duration (perpetuity) 4. Plan and reference 5. Responsibilities of landowner and client 6. Consideration 7. Indemnities
36
VALE ROYAL GI What would you do if you couldn't agree a licence?
Understand why not agreeing - maybe need to offer more? Could serve s172 as related to DCO but would need to be at the location of the works Could agree a lease Could serve s53 of 08' act.
37
VALE ROYAL GI Why did you advise on the compound here?
Already a registered grantor Near to the field Yard not being used
38
VALE ROYAL GI What was your advice?
Agreeing the compound for mat storage at the yard would be the most cost effective solution for the client. Only other viable sites were at least 2 miles away so this would save time and money for client. I advised therefore, that if there was any pushback on the licence fee, we should be willing to offer more to secure this.
39
VALE ROYAL GI What rate was agreed? How was the rate calculated?
£500 for 5 weeks paid as upfront compensation. £500 would then be deducted from any claim after the works. Rate was calculated based on loss of usage and disturbance, considering wear and tear. Comparable evidence was used based on "schemes of similar land use, adjusted based on the area/time to come up with a fair value"
40
MIDDLETON BRIDGE OPTIONS What challenges were faced with the land referencing?
Land abutting northern side of river was owned by a dissolved company from 1960s with no evidence of succession. = Possible eschat
41
MIDDLETON BRIDGE OPTIONS What if it was escheat?
Cannot serve notice Cannot purchase except in exceptional circumstances under s137 of the TCPA 1990.
42
MIDDLETON BRIDGE OPTIONS How did you determine it was not escheat?
I determined that it was most likely not with the crown as it was low value land with potential liabilities due to the public access to the land, invasive species. This due diligence inspection assured the client that there was no risk.
43
MIDDLETON BRIDGE OPTIONS How did you proceed?
Ultimately scheme has been put on pause, but advice at the time would have been to construct under notice, with a site notice to be erected ‘to whom it may concern’ on the dissolved company land. (Due to possibility shareholders still existing) Once constructed, it could be assessed if a permanent acquisition would be beneficial, or whether reinforcing the original bridge would make more sense.
44
BNG UNITS NORTH LONDON What due diligence did you do on the units?
- Checked defintelty acquiring the correct units for the habitat - Sent BNG metric, which I had checked by client and independent ecologists - Checked evidence on net gain register - Had cadent's solicitor review - Performed AML checks
45
FUTURE CROP LOSS RIVER MERSEY What was the claim for and how did you calculate your counter claim it?
- Crop element of claim was for £943 for 2024 and then £1446 for 2025-27 - Revised area (0.55 from 0.9) given and got rid of future losses to get £455.10 (based on 3.5t/ac at £200/tonne for crop + 1.5t/ac at £80/tonne for straw)
46
WORSLEY LAND RIGHTS ISSUE How was the easement calculated?
Land valued at £9500/acre Area of land was 0.25 ac (200m x5m access strip) Therefore based on 80% of land value this would = £1900, say £2000.
47
VEGETATION CLEARANCE BOLTON What were the alternative options?
- Take risk based approach and carry out works closer the time, in the hope nesting birds have moved - Delay works into an outage in the Autumn - Create alternative access through riding school to access pylon (additional disruption)
48
VEGETATION CLERANCE BOLTON What were the landowner’s requirements? What impact might they have had on the works?
- Landowner required one access movement per day - Landowner required access to go through fence onto the footpath with reinstatement of the the fence after. To avoid disturbance to the riding school. - Checking in with landowner when leaving site to avoid meeting riders. The impact of this meant that the de-veg works would be more important due to the alternatives
49
VEGETATION CLEARANCE BOLTON What regulation is in place that governs hedge clearance / protects nesting birds
Wildlife and countryside act 1981, which makes it an offence to intentionally damage or destroy any wild bird's nest or eggs, or to disturb nesting birds. Additionally, the Hedgerows Regulations 1997 exist to protect certain important countryside hedgerows from removal
50
BNG UNITS NORTH LONDON What is the BNG hierarchy?
It is an industry standard that was created by DEFRA under the Environment Act 2021 and the levels are: Avoidance, mitigation, on-site enhancement, on-site creation, off-site gains, and lastly, statutory credits
51
BNG UNITS NORTH LONDON Why was 0.67 units required? How is this assessed?
0.67 Units was required due to the area of mixed deciduous woodland (0.15 acres) required to be removed... The condition of the woodland was very good, and the distinctiveness was medium-high (5) meaning the same or better habitat would need to be replaced. This was all assessed by a baseline survey from the ecologist, and then I proceeded to search for available units on GAIA.
52
BNG UNITS NORTH LONDON You mention that because your client’s scheme had not achieved planning, a more robust option would be to purchase outside the National Character area, why did you advise this?
Not the case - the scheme in Epping forest, which I had enquired about, which had 0.67 units of the same habitat had not achieved planning... Therefore, pursuing this would have meant the development works to my Client's land would have been delayed by a number of months. I advised that outside the NCA would have additional costs, but the time saving would potentially save more costs to the client.
53
BNG UNITS NORTH LONDON You mention cost difference between statutory units and the units from a nearby supplier, what is that cost difference?
0.67 Units in Epping Forest = £30k 0.67 x 1.33 Units in Bedfordshire = £50k 0.67 x 2 Units Statutory = £165k
54
DEVELOPMENT POTENTIAL SUTTON WEAVER How did you overlay the proposals?
Instructed my GIS team Performed on site inspection to clarify W3Ws + coordinates to see if they matched. Confirmed planning proposals. Hand held GPS land meter tool confirmed location
55
DEVELOPMENT POTENTIAL SUTTON WEAVER Why could the route be moved?
Area of development was no within the LOD of the project and could extend the RLB on the northern side to bring it in on the southern side
56
DEVELOPMENT POTENTIAL SUTTON WEAVER Why is it important to determine if planning permission exists?
If PP present, could mean significantly higher costs to compensate for loss. If doesn't exist but landowner is claiming hope value, you need to be able to reasonably disprove e.g. in a level 3 flood risk zone.
57
SSSI LEICESTERSHIRE What is a SSSI?
A Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) is a formal conservation designation. Usually, it describes an area that’s of particular interest to science due to the rare species of fauna or flora it contains - or even important geological or physiological features that may lie in its boundaries.
58
SSSI LEICESTERSHIRE What were the protected characteristics?
- No vehicle access allowed to protect the Cotes Grassland (except on existing tracks) - Intentionally damaging the SSSI is an offence
59
SSSI LEICESTERSHIRE What is the Cotes Grassland?
A lowland neutral grassland habitat
60
SSSI LEICESTERSHIRE How did you ensure assent would be given?
SSSI assent ontained by NGET through NE Advised to provide detailed info of the works and RAMS to NE (how vehicle access can be prevented through walking with small trailers) NE must respond within 28 days
61
SSSI LEICESTERSHIRE If you didn't get assent, what would your advice have been?
Re-assess the access as no right of appeal. If trailers deemed too risky to the habitat, then look at potential cranes from the road, ability of drones etc., Works were not urgent, but if they were, the safety element would justify taking vehicles on if this was the safest way to do so.
62
MORLEY COMMON How did you obtain consent?
(Following checking magic maps to identify common land) Obtained from secretary of state under s38 of the Commons Act 2006 Obtained written consent from commoners following consultation Planning inspectorate made decision (within 40 weeks).
63
MORLEY COMMON Once consent was obtained, how was this followed through?
Publicised in local newspaper (Warrington Guardian)
64
MORLEY COMMON How is magic maps verified?
The data on there is derived from the commons register.
65
MORLEY COMMON What were the non-statutory bodies?
e.g. - Ramblers Association -Wildlife Trusts - Local Parish - Open spaces society - AONB conservation board.
66
DEVELOPMENT POTENTIAL SUTTON WEAVER What advice did you provide? (based on the known requirements of the scheme and potential issues the overlap may have)
- Staying with existing route could provide issues further down the line, especially in terms of compensating for any development area lost. - Measurements and meetings with landowner showed that the boundaries could be extended to the north within the same landowner's land, route of pipe itself could actually remain the same to a large extent (just coming south later) - I instructed my GIS team to produce an overlay plan and presented this information in a report to my client. - I advised that my client should consider moving the boundaries of the easement area to avoid the development as planning had been granted - Whilst this the development would ultimately not affect the asset, the risk that comes with acquiring land rights over an area with existing development plans/access areas from a cost and relations view is not worth the risk to my client - I noted that by editing the route another targeted consultation would be required.
67
MORLEY COMMON Why was a common land application required ?
Intrusive survey and the construction of the pipe work would be required on the land with construction of apparatus. Therfore a 'consent to construct works on common land' application was required under Commons Act 2006 Section 38 and the National Trust Act. NI work did not require an application
68
MORLEY COMMON Talk me through the process of a common land application
- extensive informal consultation before submitting an application. - EIA required - you need to have received either the EIA screening decision or EIA consent (where needed) from Natural England. - CLP2 Form 1. Requires a description of the works, as this was temporary works, clearly state the period of time for which consent is sought. 2. Planning permission (if applicable) 3. Does it affect any designations? e.g. SSSI 4. Existing works 5. Public Access 6. Advertising - Please advertise your proposal at the same time as you make the application, and allow a minimum of 28 days for people to write to us with their views. 7. H&S Questionnaire, Notice, Consultation letter, Plans, Commons register all in appendix Provide two copies of an up-to-date map which clearly shows the works you propose to carry out and their location.
69
MORELY COMMON What would have happened if application took too long to be approved?
Sought alternatives in the schedule for the intrusive works. This was a good parameter to be then used for the construction works down the line. Serving a s172 notice would still need to accompany an application as it would restrict access to the common.
70
SFI LOSS ASSESSMENT IRLAM What was the wildflower mix?
CAHL2 wildlife mix CAHL2= Winter bird food on arable and horticultural land. Planted in winter and at most height in June-August.
71
SFI LOSS ASSESSMENT IRLAM What was the associated payment for the mix?
£853 per hectare (ha) per year (for 3 years)
72
SFI LOSS ASSESSMENT IRLAM What cereal crops could you include with CAHL2
spring barley spring oats spring rye spring triticale spring wheat red millet white millet
73
SFI LOSS ASSESSMENT IRLAM Why did you report to both the farmer and the client?
- Client as needed to advise that they would need to pay for the SFI loss - Farmer to advise that the RPA should be contacted so that they do not receive penalties and seek further compensation from my client.
74
SFI LOSS ASSESSMENT IRLAM What was the loss and how was it calculated?
0.22 ha would be lost I understood my clients requirements to be a 400m access track of 5m width, plus a 20x10m working area. 0.22ha = £188 in loss of SFI
75
SFI LOSS ASSESSMENT IRLAM What penalties could the farmer have faced for the loss of SFI?
failing to carry out the agreed actions, penalties can include repayment of payments received. Given 0.22 acres lost, a potential circa £200 penalty for losses within this area. In severe cases the agreement can be terminated.
76
VALE ROYAL GI Why did you agree the access license with the tenant but the compound with the landowner?
- Access licence was agreed first, and this was in the standard form my client would agree intrusive access for. - Became apparent upon agreeing the access licence, that the contractors would require significant storage of track matting as it was coming into winter (1km route). Could not do this on the agricultural land so looked at the yard. - Yard was not being used by the landowner or tenant farmer, so sought compound licence for this.
77
VALE ROYAL GI What was the reasonable and justifiable rate? How did you work out what rates were r and j?
- Assessed current usage of the land - Assessed comparable evidence for compound licences with little/no disruption. Evidence showed around £100 per week to account for the wear and tear and disturbance. - Offered £500 licence for 5 weeks of access, but offered as upfront compensation, so that any claims over and above this amount post works could account for this amount already. - Looking to only pay for losses, given the notice powers available.
78
MORLEY COMMON Who is the application for section 38 sent to?
The Planning Inspectorate
79
MORLEY COMMON What advice did you provide around s38 and the timescales involved with the application and how this would affect the work?
The length of time taken to decide your application will depend on the nature and extent of the works, the number of objections and the procedure followed. No objections = 4 months of you meeting all the advertising/consultation requirements in full. It was assumed no objections Objections = 6 months if an exchange of written representations is needed 9 months = site visit or a public inquiry or hearing needed. I assumed there was the possibility of objections, so given my clients GI campaign was lasting around 6 months, I advised that this borehole investigation should be put to the back of the schedule.
80
MORLEY COMMON What rights did the commoners have?
- Right to collect firewood - Right to roam
81
MORLEY COMMON How did you check the rights commoners had?
Contacted local county council to inspect the Commons Register.
82
MORLEY COMMON Under what section can anyone lead you to remove your equipment?
Section 41 (Commons Act 2006) - only if not acted in accordance with section 38.
83
MORLEY COMMON What are the costs associated with a common land application to your client?
1. Buy common land registry (£50 from LPA) 2. Pay for advertisement in local newspaper (circa £300-500) 3. Client to pay surveyors fees for the process (c £3-4k) e.g. time to consult etc., *no cost for the application itself
84
SSSI Leicestershire What list do you check for SSSIs to see the requirements?
An ORNEC list (Operations Requiring Natural England's Consent) is a list specific to each Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI)
85
SSSI Leicestershire If waited more than 28 days for application what should you do?
- Assume application has been rejected - Contact to ask why
86
SSSI Leicestershire If you needed access in an emergency, what would you do?
- Advise client to take access - Seek retrospective notification to NE within 24 hours.
87
VALE ROYAL GI If 20p psf was agreed in the compound, what would have happened to the price if this was in the agricultural land?
Would have raised up to 30-35p psf due to the loss of grazing.
88
MIDDLETON BRIDGE OPTIONS If you applied to Environment Agency for consent to work at the mains river, what would need to be in the application?
- Risk assessment - Details of parties - Details of the project - Plans - Site surveys This process can take several months.
89
VALE ROYAL GI Why was a compound licence required?
Contractor needed to store equipment and did not have statutory powers available.
90
VALE ROYAL GI What was the overrun rate?
£200/week (40p psf)
91
AGREEING LEVEL OF FEES WITH CLIENT What would you do if the PO was about to run out?
- Send early warning report to raise that unforeseen issues have come up - Raise impact report - what the impact has been - and proactively monitor the time, going above and beyond to ensure an uplift is justified - Raise that uplift in PO is required.
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DEVELOPMENT POTENTIAL SUTTON WEAVER If the your development (DCO) could not be moved, what would you have done?
I would have worked with the developer of the solar farm to see how we could mitigate their loss. e.g. phased work/access during construction, shared access track, ensuring key apparatus is away from the overlap